Ray Edwards is a serial entrepreneur, master copywriter, and the author of How to Write Copy That Sells. In this interview, Ray shares his own experience facing a government lockdown during COVID-19 that closed his coffee shop and canceled his live events, along with the approach he took to focus on serving customers at the highest level possible—and achieve his most profitable months ever—despite the circumstances.

John Meese 0:02
Ray Edwards. Good morning. How are you?

Ray Edwards 0:04
Good morning. I'm excellent. How are you, sir?

John Meese 0:07
I am also excellent. And even more so because you're here with me over the magic of the internet. So thank you for being here. I appreciate your time.

Ray Edwards 0:16
Well, it's my pleasure.

John Meese 0:17
Well, Ray, I've had the pleasure of getting to know you, for several, you know, through several different avenues over the last few years. And I'm grateful for that not only your friendship, but also your mentorship. So before we kind of dive in today's conversation, I'm sure that there are some people who are listening to this, who, for shame, are not aware of you and the work that you do. So could we actually start off real quick by just, if you could summarize for me, Ray, who are you and what gets you out of bed in the morning?

Ray Edwards 0:49
Who am I? What gets me out of bed in the morning, the sunrise. That's the most basic level, but it really is. I mean, over these last few months, I think we've all had a chance to re examine on what's important to us in life? And so those are things that are much in my mind these days. I think what you mean those in the context of professional and work and entrepreneurship and who I am in that regards

John Meese 1:12
Yeah, we're gonna get to that either way, but I want to know your heart.

Ray Edwards 1:15
Yeah, I'm known as a copywriter. I write the words that sell products and services, and doesn't mean a little c inside a circle. It's WRITE, not RIGHT. Yes, but I've written for people like Michael Hyatt, our mutual friend, Tony Robbins, Jack Canfield, Jeff Walker, lots of other Amy Porterfield, Pat Flynn. Lots of folks you may know lots of folks who may not and these days I've mainly teach other people how to write the words that sell their own products and services. And we have a certification program for copywriters and really focused on copywriting these days because it turns out, people need good sales copy in today's new economy,

John Meese 1:54
well. They always do. But one of the things that happens whenever an economic crisis is is it takes out some of the things fluff that you may have got away with before and makes it really clear where you need to prioritize. And yeah.

Ray Edwards 2:04
I like what Warren Buffett says, He says, when the recession hits, you get to see who's been skinny dipping.

John Meese 2:10
Yeah the water goes out was that it's like, wait a minute. So well, let's talk about what we're what we're at right now. And so you and I are talking, it's, you know, mid July. So, it's now been a little over four months or a third of a year, since in the US was declared a national emergency and COVID-19 was declared a global pandemic. And so it's crazy to think it's been a third of a year, but it has, but I if you would Ray, I would love it if you would actually go back with me in time to the beginning of this year. And I would love to hear your experience on when you first realized that COVID-19 was a real threat. And that by the way, when I say COVID-19 that could mean the actual pandemic. But it could also mean the greater lockdown. I mean, I mean, it's the economic crisis is more than just a health crisis. But I love to know if you remember where you were or what you saw or heard that caused you to pay attention.

Ray Edwards 3:01
I was at Social Media Marketing World in San Diego. And it was right before the lockdowns began. And I hadn't even heard anything about the virus until I was there and I heard some people talking about having to cancel speaking engagements, travel plans and some of the people from China who were supposed to be at the event were not able to come. And it's all because of this Coronavirus thing. That's where I first heard about it. And by the time we finished that event, a number of people had left early, to make sure they get back home and not be barred at the border quarantined. And I kind of thought it was overblown and exaggerated and I thought this is going to go away. It's going to go away. It's going to be gone. A few days. But that's not what happened. And it unfolded actually in the state of Washington where we live. It was my anniversary the 23rd of March when the governor declared us to be on shelter in place or lockdown mode.

John Meese 3:56
I know that you have to cancel date night.

Ray Edwards 3:58
Yeah. We were still together, though, it turns out we live together in the same house.

John Meese 4:02
It turns out that works out pretty conveniently. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, that's a very memorable experience, I'm sure. And one of my other guests actually shared the same story. I was trying remember who else was a Social Media Marketing World? Well, if it was Pat Flynn, or if it was a couple of the people, but that exact same conference, I know at least somebody one of my other guests mentioned that same story. But obviously, a lot of people go to that conference, you weren't alone. Well, as a, as a business owner, and as a, you know, as a teacher, how did you respond to that? What was your reaction?

Ray Edwards 4:35
Well, I saw immediately, once I began to see that the shelter in place thing was inevitable. I realized this is going to have a huge impact. I didn't see how big was going to be I didn't there's no way I did not envision in any shape or fashion or form, what was about to happen. I did realize we need to get ready because it's going to impact our business. And I didn't think would impact it as in as big a way as it did. Like we have a coffee shop here locally in Spokane. I didn't anticipate the governor saying, well, you have to close. Like, you just have to close. I thought what if I told you that we do You're crazy. If you told me that was gonna happen? Yeah, but it did.

John Meese 5:13
How long were you closed? Or are you still closed over there?

Ray Edwards 5:15
We finally opened up a couple weeks ago. But it's people have to wear a mask. They have to be separate, you know, the social distancing rules, and we're at half capacity and it's it was almost more profitable. Not almost it was more profitable for us when we couldn't serve people in inside.It was all take out. But nonetheless, we stayed open for takeout orders all through the entire lockdown.

John Meese 5:41
Okay, you did so you were able to do that. That's good.

Ray Edwards 5:43
We actually because of that we communicated through social media with our customers about the fact that we're see we're here we're open. There's some sense of normalcy. If you want to come get a cup of coffee, you can come we can't sit down but we'll serve your cup of coffee. We actually had our most profitable month in the history of the shop. ever in April Yeah.

John Meese 6:00
yeah. Well well so I obviously the coffee shop is not what you're most well known for although that is a it's a good rooots in the brick and mortar business world. But I'd love to know beyond that how has the economic crisis impacted your business? So I mean, obviously the coffee shop was there was a blow but you were able to adapt and you said you had your most profitable month ever. But what about the rest of your business? Because you also you write you teach. I mean, could you give us a little bit of a behind the curtain view of what else is how this has affected you?

Ray Edwards 6:33
Yeah, our main revenue streams in the in the main company Ravers International, is we have a copywriting training program, which we sell as a digital course and coaching program online. There's an upgrade to get coached as well. And then we have a certification program which is another investment and people get certified by me as copywriters. And we have an agency, a digital agency, where we write for some larger clients, like Stu McClaren is one of our clients. sand Social Media Marketing World is another client. So that all is going well, the agency is doing better than I ever expected. Because everybody needs good copy now. They needed it before but now it's like, they understand more clearly just how much they need it and when they need it, because they know when they need to dollars to come in the door that's going well. We were impacted immediately with some of the people in our coaching programs who had to withdraw because it couldn't make the payments. That was kind of a surprise. But then again, not. We were prepared. I mean, our business is the business of communicating value to the marketplace and communicating well to your customers and your prospective customers. So we did uh, right off the bat, we did a how to communicate with your, with your buyers and your prospective buyers and community about what's happening with your business during the crisis. And it's it's been a opportunity for us to contribute to our listeners and readers in that way. And then the biggest impact on us though, was the fact that most of our revenue is being generated at live events. We're doing seminars, certification workshops all around the country, speaking to other people events, other people's events, like I was speaking Social Media Markeitng World. That's what I was doing there. So that all came to a stop abruptly. We had, we had we even had a workshop schedule here in the building where our offices are, in this great facility. They just opened up a little over a year ago, we had all these events scheduled, and we had to shut those down because we can't get more than 10 people together at a time. So that all came to an end, we realized, Wow, we had like, a large portion of our business was based on these live events. We never thought those would be cut off all at once, all across the board. So we've had to retool and figure out well, what do we do about that? You know, I've seen other people doing the same thing. I know, Michae'ls had do the same thing. His coaching program, Tony Robbins just did his first ever UPW as a virtual event.

John Meese 8:53
I saw that Well, I didn't see the whole event, but I saw it's kind of behind the scenes stuff. Interesting.

Ray Edwards 8:57
Yeah, I never thought that would happen. UPW as a virtual event, right? He never thought it would either.

John Meese 9:04
Well, so how are you adapting your business? In the midst of that? I mean, you mentioned the agency is going really well. I mean, events, struggle,

Ray Edwards 9:10
We virtualized our our workshops. We're going to start those up again. We did, we did one, but we're getting ready to do a series of them.

John Meese 9:17
Okay, great.

Ray Edwards 9:18
So we just been watching what other people are doing with virtual events, trying to figure out how to make this more than a webinar more than a zoom meeting. And it's actually it's been instructive, because I realized, Oh, we just pretend that it's not a zoom meeting. We ask ourselves, well, we do if we were in person, we do that we send them a box with the stuff in it. We make sure we touch and communicate with each person individually. It's just the stuff you do when you work with people. Yes. Yeah. And, you know, people are what one thing I've found this been very interesting is people did not realize how much being with other people was important to them until they couldn't do it anymore. Mm hmm. And Now when I send a direct message to somebody or a voicemail, or I leave them a video in Dropbox, they're blown away. And I think it's not because I'm some super important person, it's just that somebody reached out to them and paid personal attention to them. Like, let them know, Hey, I'm thinking about you think about your business, think about your project you're working on. So all the things you know, like personal handwritten notes, calling customers to see how they're doing all this stuff we know he should have been doing before but we got away with not doing it because everything was going well. It's easy to feel like you're playing this top level game when you're winning the Super Bowl. It's another thing when the competition's got your face grounded in the mud and feels like every move you might get kicked in the gut, which is how a lot of business people feel right now with this lockdowns and the economic impact of this whole thing. So for us, really, John, it's been I hesitate to say this, it's been kind of a blessing in large part because it is caused us to Look at what's most profitable in our business. Where are we serving people at the highest level? And how can we do that better, with more focus and more attention to profitability, and service to the customer, as opposed to we weren't wasteful before, but we weren't paying attention to the P's and Q's as much as we are now.

John Meese 11:15
Yeah. Well, so what does that enlighten? You know, other than the front side of your services, kind of, you know, rethinking the live environments is virtual, and also, you know, retooling it to scale, the agency, what other impact has that had in your business? Has that changed? Kind of, like you were just alluding to the way you approach the financial structure of your business or just the way you make decisions?

Ray Edwards 11:36
Yeah, all that. Financially, we took a hard look at profitability and things we were spending money on that we weren't really using, as much as we could have we asked ourselves, do we really need that? And in many cases, the answer was no, we don't really need it. It's not it's not a matter of being cheap or having a scarcity mindset is just a matter of being a good steward of what we've been given. So we're much more conscious of that. The biggest impact it's made is we've been focused on the customers and making their experience the best it can possibly be serving him at the highest level we have ever served them, giving them the most personal attention we ever given. Being proactive about checking in with them and making sure everything's going okay with them in their life and in their business, not just in terms of relationship as a as a customer. But, um, you know, I've there are people who have been my customers who have contracted the virus, and one or two of them have passed on. Hmm. So it's, it's, we've seen the impact in a very personal way. Yeah, you don't have to go very far to you know, somebody who's got the virus or had the virus or lost someone to the virus, or somebody who lost their business because of the economic pressure on them. So it's been human contact, transparency, sharing what we've learned, the good, the bad, and the ugly, with our customers with our readers and our podcast listeners. Just being not pretending everything is going super great but also not falling into the negativity mindset. I mean, we we have to acknowledge reality. But then we also, I believe, in my belief system, we owe it to the world to show up in a better way, and present some hope to people. So that's what we're doing.

Yeah. Well, good. Well, that's good. And that's important. Thank you, Ray. I'd love to kind of circle back to something you said earlier about copy being more important now, you know, then beforehand and Well, I mean, I immediately agreed with you I realized like I don't want to jump to the conclusion that everybody listened this podcast would jump to that same conclusion. And so let's actually circle back to that for a minute if you could, I'd love for you to talk about the importance of of sales copy and effective sales copy in your business during uncertain times. uncertain times, as it may be an overused phrase right now but it is

in these trying economic times

John Meese 13:45
in these trying times. Yes.

Ray Edwards 13:47
Buy a car from us. Yeah, so let's start with this. What is copy we talked about copywriting is the words that sell your products and services or your ideas or beliefs to try to get people to buy into. For instance, maybe you're trying to sell people on voting for a certain political candidate. There's gonna be a lot of that happening in a couple months. So that's all copy, Nora Ephron said everything is copy. And I've believed that for a long time. I've never been more adamant about it than I am now. Everything every communication you have in your business, whether it's what you say, when you answer the phone, what's on your business card, what's on your website, what's in your emails, what's in your ads, what's on your sales pages, what's in your checkout pages, it's all copy. And what I mean by that is, you're you're always making a sale, you're just selling people on you and your business or you're selling them on the competition, because you're not doing a great job. You're not connecting with him. and quality of your business is equal to the quality of your communication. And the quality of your communication is equal to its clarity and its relevance to the person you're communicating with. And like we have a framework for writing copy called the pastor framework and the first letter of the pastor framework is P and it stands for person, problem and pain. Now more than ever, you have To be dialed in on who the person is that you're primarily serving, what the problem is you're helping them solve and what is the pain of that problem in the way that they experience it? Because they may describe it differently than you do the example like using your if your weight loss coach, you may be thinking, well, having that extra pounds on you is bad, because it's bad for your cardiovascular systems could lead to diabetes could lead to all sorts of arteriosclerosis, all these terrible outcomes for your health. But the way your customer is experiencing that pain is they don't like the way they look when they take off their shirt, or they get in a swimsuit to go to the pool on the beach. So you've got to talk about the problem and the pain in the way that's relevant to them the way they're experiencing it. And that means people always ask me Well, how do I know? Well, you got to know your customer. I used to play it as a joke said you could actually talk to them.

John Meese 15:49
You could actually talk to them. Yeah.

Ray Edwards 15:50
Now I'd say it and I get a laugh and I say but I'm serious. You need to actually talk to them. So like I started calling people when the when the lockdowns began, I started calling customers out of our database at random. I didn't look at who is the biggest customer who is the smallest who has the least trouble the most trouble or any of those things I just looked at, who we serving and what's going on with them. And I started asking him how is interesting because the first element that gets into the conversation is suspicion. Why are you calling me? Are trying to sell me something? And I would say, No, I'm just calling to see how it's going. What are you experiencing? We're trying to figure this out, too. So talk to me about what's happening in your, in your world in your business. And that level of communication, I realized we should have been doing this all along. We should have been why why were we not serving people at the highest level possible? And I think it's not because we didn't want to we didn't realize what the highest level possible was until we were forced to come up with a new standard.

John Meese 16:48
Okay, well, with that framework in mind, you know, what advice do you have for the business owner who's listening to this podcast and you know, we've got a mix, right? We've got people who have online businesses, you know, like yours like mine that are somewhat I mean, I'm not they're not we're not immune, right. We're not immune to global uncertainty you just part of the economic system. Exactly. We're part Yes, we're part of the economic system. But there's some of us with an online business who may have an upper hand compared to, or there's also some like you and I actually aren't both cuz I don't know if you knew I opened a coworking space in January.

Ray Edwards 17:22
I do know

John Meese 17:23
Yes. Okay. Yeah. So I opened a co working space in January. So we also got our taste of the lockdown. So there are, I'm sure there are people who are listening to this interview, who are just brick and mortar, right. And that's all their whole their whole world up until now has been the physical brick and mortar business. And there's some people who have that online experience. So just want to set the stage for that for a second. I mean, what advice do you have for that business owner about how to build or rebuild a profitable business in this economy, but in any economy? I mean, what what are those timeless principles we really should be thinking apply right now? More than ever, like talking to your customers?

Ray Edwards 17:55
Right? Well, that's the start. Talk to your customers and really listen to them. Don't call with an agenda, don't call to sell them something, just call to find out, Where does it hurt? What if we could help you that and saying what can we help you with and make it clear to them, you're just you're fact finding you're trying to understand what's happening in their world. So you need to understand and appreciate the world as they live in it. And I'll give you a couple of examples of how this plays out in just a moment. But the next step is to figure out how can you serve and relieve their pain at a higher level than you ever had before and think outside the box, you may need to change your entire business model. Like I have a friend who has a business that is all about teaching people how to get on stages and speak live events. Well, that's become somewhat of a challenge now. Those things are canceled for at least the next six months or so. So you've got to think about well, what does this mean to people who want to buy coffee at a coffee shop, who would love to come in and sit and enjoy the atmosphere before? They're not gonna be able to have that same experience going forward? What are we do about that. Just as an example we've been thinking about in our coffee shop, introducing some digital products, like how to make your favorite coffee beverages like some instructional videos, and then offering a supply the tools and the beans and the ingredients for sale as well. Starting a subscription plan where people can get a certain maybe a mug and some different coffee beans each month and a little descriptive video about where the beans come from what recipe is a month is that sort of thing.

John Meese 19:28
That's cool

Ray Edwards 19:29
So we're thinking about, I've got a couple of friends who run massage therapy practices, and they are both doing online training, like videos where you pay to get access to the video and the video shows you how to self-massage. Because for a lot of people it's not just a luxury, like it feels good to get a massage for me, it's physical therapy for me, I need it to be able to function properly because I have a neurological problem, and so that's what brought that to mind for me, I contacted my practitioner and I said, "What are you going to be doing because I know we can't come in to get a massage?" She said "Well, I can show you these techniques. "And she talked about how she's going to do that online. She's also doing training, teaching massage therapists how to massage and the modality that she uses to work with our clients. And then offering ongoing membership payments so that during the time when things are back to normal, as close to normal as it can get, it normalizes her revenue stream by having people pay a monthly fee. And they get one massage a month at a discounted rate. And they can add on to that. So whereas before, it was maybe catch as catch can, they would come in once every two, three months or once every month and a half or so. Now they're scheduled like clockwork, and they don't miss it and they they actually end up buying more massages. So I think this kind of thing applies to any business. Jay Abraham teaches there's only three ways to grow your business. Get more new customers is number one. Get More frequency of transaction from those customers. And number three is number two and number three is to get bigger transaction value with each transaction. And if you think about it, there's nothing you can do that really falls outside those three definitions of how to increase the revenue in your business. And if you do, if you do any one of them, it helps. But if you do all three of those things, and even 10%, more is multiplicative. It's not just additive. So think in terms of how can I add more customers? How can I get them to buy more frequently? How can I get them to spend more each time they purchase with me, and that increases their value to your business increases your profitability, but most importantly, it increases the level at which you're serving your customers and clients.

John Meese 21:43
That's powerful. Thank you for sharing that. And I love that insight from I've heard that before, but I wasn't worried that was from Jay Abraham. I love that. So I'm just trying to kind of put myself in the shoes of someone who's listening to us they're thinking okay, those are some creative ways to rethink services and products. But what about what, so let's just kind of change course for a second. What about the newly promoted to on to entrepreneur? Right? Because there are these, there's this massive group of people, I mean, 10s of millions of people who've been recently promoted from employee to entrepreneur. So what advice do you have for them about, you know where to get started?

Ray Edwards 22:22
Good question. I love the way you put that newly promoted to entrepreneurs. Welcome aboard my friends

John Meese 22:27
Welcome aboard. Yeah.

Ray Edwards 22:30
Um, so here's what I would say is, this is the time to invest in knowledge that is timeless. Hmm. So I would say invest in the basics, like, get your financial house in order. So that means probably need to learn something a thing or two from Dave Ramsey gets your productivity game and your executive leadership game on par, that probably means spending some time with Michael Hyatt and Company gets your marketing game up to speed. So that's all about communicating with your customers and your prospective customers in a way that's meaningful to them. So I would recommend Donald Miller's building a story brand, and of the work that he's doing. I think the world is that guy and the work they do their story brand. I would also modestly humbly suggest you grab a copy of my book, How to Write Copy That Sells, because it's about how to focus in on the customer and write in a meaningful way to persuade them to spend money with you to invest money with you. And then if you haven't, this might be a good time to look at a book called I think it's called Fix This Next by Mike Michalowicz. Yeah, that that guy is just a brilliant writer, teacher, mentor and business. And that's a good book to be reading right now.

John Meese 23:57
Well, that's good. Well, that's that's that's super helpful feedback. Other than Mike, all of this is just like I maybe it's by coincidence or serendipity? I don't know. But other than Mike, the three names you listed behind yourself other than Mike in yourself. They all you know, they all live right here within, you know, within a stone's throw away

Ray Edwards 24:14
Well it the center of the economic universe.

John Meese 24:16
Yes, the Center for you know, Williamson County, Tennessee, the center of the economic universe of the internet, it seems so. Well, that's good advice. Ray. I appreciate that. What do you think? Are this a little bit of speculation? I'm going to call out for you. So I apologize for that. But I think it's helpful. What do you think are changes that are happening right now in the small business or entrepreneurs world, which are which are probably going to last? And I don't just mean like the health side. I mean, there's probably health things like some people say we may never even shake shake hands. Again, I don't know about that. But I really am thinking about the, you know, finance and marketing, especially in terms of how we approach business. You mean there's what we're experiencing right now is going to have a lasting impact of some kind. So do you have inclination about what you think that impact might be.

Ray Edwards 25:02
Yeah, there's several things that are going on that are exciting to me, I think. I mean, listen, I'm I'm very sad about the people who've been victim to this virus who've suffered the illness or lost loved ones or lost their own lives. So I don't want to downplay that at all. That's serious and grieves me. But if we for just a moment, turned to think about the future, what's going to be happening? what's already happening, first of all, people in general, who had no idea what it meant to learn online or to get education online, have suddenly in mass learned how to do that. Who didn't know what zoom was four months ago? now know how to operate like an expert. So that's going to continue because many companies have learned that they thought there, they couldn't have their workforce work remotely or from home and they've learned well Not only can that work, it's much more profitable. Maybe we don't need to rent all this space or at least these offices. So I think those things are going to continue to happen. People are, many people have been newly promoted as you put it to entrepreneurship. So there's, there's, there's an influx of new folks who want to learn how to do the things that I know how to do like marketing things that you know how to do the things that you like the services, you provided your coworking space, when you're able to open that back up fully. that many of the people that we know like, there's Michael Hyatt with his productivity and leadership expertise. There's Donald Miller with his marketing expertise. There's people who teach how to sell things via webinar and live events online. And so then if you move just to the consumer level, I know so many people who had never ordered before groceries online before. I've never ordered food online before like delivery to their house, who now are using grubhub and Amazon Prime and they've got their groceries coming to their doorstep. And many of those people, like one lady I know, is in her 90s. And she started ordering groceries online. She's delighted because it gets delivered right to her doorway said I'll never go to the grocery store again. And I think that's that's kind of extreme. But she's in her 90s. So, so she probably could pull that off.

John Meese 27:27
She probably could pull that off.

Ray Edwards 27:29
Yeah, but a lot of people are going to are going to continue, I think buying things online that never had bought before. And that's going to continue. So I think it's like, it's almost like accelerated the online economy. By 10 years or so. I think it would have had to wait 10 years or so to get to the point we are now with online commerce and business and learning and presence. If we hadn't been forced into it, which we have been and this I think that's gonna that's going to be a good economic future for us. I think we're gonna, this is a tough time but we're going to recover from it faster. Faster than most people think that's my belief.

John Meese 28:02
Yeah, no, I think that's I think that's insightful. And I think that I appreciate you sharing your speculation. It's an it's it's an educated guess it's such as a guess, right? I mean, everything you're saying makes sense. I think back to the example you shared about what you're doing with the coffee shop, where you guys are looking at, well, you have this expertise, and you're selling people, coffee, that doesn't mean just come pick it up. You know, that also can mean make it home. And I'm curious if that's also going to become another trend that just, there's, I think that while many companies are going remote, I think there will always be some desire for those that don't, you know, to actually go get someone else to brew you cup make you a latte right now.

Ray Edwards 28:44
We've seen like, we go on social media, and we show people the recipe that we're making today at the coffee shop. Yeah, it makes people want to come get the recipe. So we've realized we need to do more of that just more of a showing. Behind the scenes. Pull back the curtain of any business. Whether it be your coffee shop or your nail salon or your hardware store, I think there's there's value in being able to communicate with people and show them the humanity and the reality of the business in the community where you're working in operating. That's that's another change. I mean, people gripe about social media and there are problems with that medium. But there's also the opportunity for us to do a lot of good and connect with people and help people through that medium so I don't think it's the fault of the medium that bad stuff ends up on there. To me it makes me feel more responsible to make sure I counterbalance that with as much good stuff as I can push out my social media channels as possible.

John Meese 29:41
Yeah, I love that. I think that's I think that's true. So But anyways, I'm curious if more businesses will follow your example of having that hybrid where you have a mix of the you know, delivered to your home or the educational content for and and the in person experience um, you know, because I think brick and mortar, I don't think it's going away completely, but it's changing.

Ray Edwards 29:59
No It is changing. And we we we learned we knew this already, but we learned it in our in our DNA. Now, We need to have our bases covered in case any one arm of our business suffers a huge economic downturn. Whether it's the brick and mortar part of our business or the live in person training part of our business or the speaking part of the business, we need to just make sure that we're, we've got coverage, so that no one or two of those things hold us hostage to our need for revenue.

John Meese 30:34
Well, Ray, I appreciate you sharing your insight today. This has been incredibly helpful. Thank you. Where can we go to learn more about you online?

Ray Edwards 30:44
RayEdwards.com

John Meese 30:46
Love it. simple, straightforward.

Ray Edwards 30:49
Yeah, connection to all things, Ray.

John Meese 30:50
That's great. Well, thank you, Ray. I appreciate your time. Keep up the good work.

Ray Edwards 30:54
Thank you John, It's always a pleasure and an honor.

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John Meese is the author of the #1 bestseller Survive and Thrive: How to Build a Profitable Business in Any Economy (Including This One). An entrepreneur himself, John is on a mission to eradicate generational poverty by equipping entrepreneurs with the tools and training they need to build thriving businesses from scratch. He is the CEO of Cowork.Inc, co-founder of Notable, and host of the Thrive School podcast.

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