Joe Pine, the author of The Experience Economy, joins me today to talk about how to turn your business into an experience for your customers. He shares the fact that an experience should be so engaging that people can't help but spend their time with you give you their attention, and then spend their money with you by buying your product. He also talks about how mass customization can really boost your business and the experience for your customers.
John Meese 0:03
Welcome to Thrive School. I'm your host, John Meese. And I am on a mission to eradicate generational poverty by equipping entrepreneurs like you to build thriving businesses from scratch. With that in mind, let's begin today's lesson, shall we? Joe, thank you so much for joining me today. How are you doing?
Joe Pine 0:21
I'm doing well, John, are you?
John Meese 0:23
I'm doing great. And I'm glad to have you here with us. I had a chance to read, you know, one of your books that The Experience Economy and make some notes on that. I'm excited to dive in and talk about that today. But before we do that, I would love for you to share with us, Joe, who are you? Who is Joe? And what gets you out of bed in the morning?
Joe Pine 0:40
Well, well, what we always say that what my purpose is in business is to figure out what's going on in the world of business and then develop frameworks to first describe what's happening, and then prescribe what companies can do about it. And I did that first with mass customization. But efficiently serving customers uniquely then followed that with the Experience Economy, which actually originally came out in 1999. I discovered the concept over 25 years ago, but it's still going on because what we what we did, my partner–Jim Gilmore and I, is not identify a fad, but a fundamental change in the very fabric of the economy. You know, we follow that up with authenticity in a book called infinite possibility on creating customer value on the digital frontier.
John Meese 1:24
Well, that's great. And that makes total sense. I can see how now that I've read the book, you know, going from that your drive your purpose to both describe what's going on in the business and changing economy and then prescribe what to do about it. So while this book was published in 1999, the version I was reading was much more recent from that. So you've republished the book or updated that a couple times. Is that right?
Joe Pine 1:44
Yeah, yeah, we came out 99. We updated in 2011. And just last year, we came out with a rerelease. in hardcover, again, with a new preview on competing for customer time, attention and money, because that's what happens today. In today's experience, economy, every company in the world competes against every other company world for the time, attention, money, the individual customer.
John Meese 2:03
Yeah, well, let's, let's talk about that. Let's go in and just dive in and start talking about the book a bit. Now, one thing that stuck out to me right from the get go is that, you know, I have my own book. And in that book, I typically approach business in two admittedly broad categories, you know, you've got products and services. But in your book, you expand that to four, including both commodities and experiences. So could you explain the distinction between commodities and products, I think that'd be a good place for us to start. And just talk about that
Joe Pine 2:31
Yeah, well commodities are the things you grow on the ground, raising the ground, pull out of the ground, Animal, mineral vegetable, but then you extract them out of ground and you sell them on the open marketplace, and commodities to the base of the agrarian economy that lasted for millennia. But then beginning with the Industrial Revolution, the 18th century began shifting into a an industrial economy, where goods are physical, tangible things that we touch and feel became the predominant economic offering the predominant component of GDP, the predominant employer is in goods. So so goods use commodities as the raw material to make or manufacture the physical tangible things. Okay.
John Meese 3:09
No, I like that distinction there. But I know that people, you know, it's a common phrase in business today, where someone, you know, to talk about your product being or your market being commoditized. But, you know, if that if I'm selling, you know, I just say computers, for example, and I'm afraid of them being commoditized, you can't really pull them out of the ground. So how does that work? I mean, do you have a Have you been able to break down that connection between that terminology?
Joe Pine 3:31
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's a fundamental thing. You know, every one of my books has this has this Boogeyman. And and and commoditization is the boogeyman of the experience economy. And, and what happens is, is goods become commoditized. When people don't care about the brand, they don't care about the features are all pretty much the same. Anyway, they come to care about three things and three things only. And that's price and price, right? That goods have been commoditized. And in fact, the internet is the greatest force of commoditization every minute, because the first marketplace means that customers can instant compare prices from one vendor to another, and that tends to push them down to the lowest possible price.
John Meese 4:10
Got it? Right. So like wallpaper is an example of something that, you know, like, you can't really just pull wallpaper out of the ground unless your wallpaper is made of grass. But if I'm looking to buy a specific style of wallpaper, unless I'm really into interior design, I don't really care the brand, I just care about the price. And that really matches kind of what I'm looking for. Is it was that a kind of fair?
Joe Pine 4:29
Are you exactly you? You probably don't even know who makes the wallpaper?
John Meese 4:34
I don't, I really don't.
Joe Pine 4:35
Does it meet my needs in terms of of color and style? And does it you know, and easiness of putting on and so forth and then on price. And if you got two things that are basically about the same, you're going to buy the lowest the one with the lowest price.
John Meese 4:51
Exactly. Okay. So that's helpful. And I think, you know, we can all kind of follow along with that idea that like okay, we want to make sure that our product like really what we're selling products that where it does matter the brand, but then on the services side, you also then expand into this whole new category of experiences, which of course, is the main focus of the book The experience economy. So can you talk about that and what the difference are between I mean, in those four categories, what really sets experiences apart from products or services?
Joe Pine 5:17
Yeah. So where you know, I should say that that services are intangible activities, right. So So goods are tangible services intangible. With experiences, what it does is it rises to the level of memorability that you that it's not just as Yes, it's intangible. But it's something that people remember, obviously, on a positive basis, I mean, the easiest way to turn a service into experience to provide for service then people remember you, but no, that's not what we're after here. So so it's memorable, where where goods are, when your commodities are fungible goods are standardized, they're done the same thing for everybody. services are customized, they're done just for an individual person, will experiences are inherently personal, you know, no two people can have the same experience, because the experience actually happens inside of us in reacting to the events that are staged in front of us.
John Meese 6:10
Let's unpack that a little bit. So experience, is this something– In other words, it's not a it's not necessarily about what I as a business offer? Because it's different for every single customer. And so, how does that work, exactly? I mean, can you kind of expound upon maybe give an example of an experience under that category?
Joe Pine 6:25
Well, you know, the experiences, you know, what have always been around, we didn't, we didn't do well, they weren't invented, when we created the book. He didn't he didn't patent the experience. So we didn't patent it, we and and they weren't even invented on July 17 1955 when Walt Disney opened up Disneyland, right? We've always had concerts and plays and sporting events, and more recently movies and TV and records and CDs, and now audio files, and so forth. Right? So experiences have always been around. And particular where you know, you're you're having an experience or that you're supposed to have experience anyway, is when they charge admission. Right? That's, that's what economically turns a service into an experience when you're charging for time, because that's what people value is they value the time that they're spending that experience. So you wouldn't imagine going to a sports stadium, a concert venue, play a movie theater, a nightclub, a theme park, and on and on the list can go without paying admission, because you know that these are experiences.
John Meese 7:30
Okay, so that's great. So that's that, I think that those are helpful examples. So why don't we talk about what that practically means for a business owner who's or an entrepreneur is listening to this and thinking, Okay, I guess based on what you're describing, right now, I've have products or services, and probably some combination of the two. Well, where should I begin, if I'm kind of bought in that I like the idea of having my own Disneyland or, you know, whatever the experience may be for my customers without building a multimillion dollar theme park? Where do I Where do I begin?
Joe Pine 7:59
Well, it really does depend on you what kind of business you're in and so forth. And it does apply B-to-B just as much as B-to-C. But so, let me give both the primary way for manufacturing the primary way for a service writer. So the primary way for manufacturer is understand that in today's experience, economy, the experience is the marketing. That, that the best way to generate demand for your physical good and although it applies to services and experiences as well, is with an experience so engaging that people can't help but spend their time with you give you their attention, and then spend their money with you by buying your product. So that's why you have these flagship brand experiences on the around the world admission feed experiences like the Heineken experience in Amsterdam, the Guinness Storehouse in Dublin holds logins auto start and vosburgh, Germany, the world of Coca Cola in Atlanta, the Ford 150, you know, truck, museum and factory live in Michigan, and so on and so forth. It's also I see a lot of brands to go direct to consumer, where they can actually control the experience instead of having to go through through a brand and and you see it with B-to-B again as well. You're like PWC, the the Price Waterhouse Coopers has like over 30 experience centers around the world where instead of always like consultants do going to the client No, no, no you client you come to us where we can control this experience we can engage you in our process in what we do while you and get you to buy our consulting or or actually an operating that that consulting process with service providers. The easiest thing to do is to understand that in the experience economy work is theater.
John Meese 9:42
Hmm. So let Tell me about so I read that in your book. And by the way, as a theater kid myself, I was excited to to reach a claim that work is theater, but for the non Thespians who's listening in who may not be as excited at the prospect. What do you mean by that work is theater.
Joe Pine 9:56
And what I mean literally work is theater is not in metaphor, I don't mean work as theatre, being theatrical. I mean, literally, that when workers are in front of customers, they're on stage. And they need to act in a way that that engages the audience. That's what a key experiences you're engaging people inside of them. And in that personal way that creates a memory. So theater is all about being intentional in what you do. You know, my favorite example of a see that is actually the Geek Squad. If you're familiar with them, yeah, yeah, founded by a friend of mine, then here here in the Minneapolis area, or actually, is it 27 years ago, I think 27 years ago, a Robert Stevens dropped out of the University of Minnesota to get into computer installation repaired business, they said, well, who better do that than geeks? So so he doesn't, he doesn't interview prospective employees, he audition, Sam wants to make sure you can type cast them as geeks as when he fit geeks running around the costumes and the white shirt to thin black ties, you know, just in case that are that are that are a clip ons just in case, there's an altercation. Um, black pants and shoes with the white socks that really make those the uniform pop, they drive around in their deep ball below. So they get to their home or to an office and Originally there as much B-to-B as B-to-C, you know, first thing I do is pull out their badge and say, Hi, I'm from the Geek Squad.
John Meese 11:23
That's a good example of theater. Yeah,
Joe Pine 11:24
right. Right. And they go about giving you a computer repair experience. And Robert says that his goal is to make the computer repair experience so engaging, that his customers can't wait to the computers break out. That's, that's because he experiences the marketing.
John Meese 11:38
Well, that's great. Well, that's a great example right there. I want to back up a little bit, because you mentioned something, when you're talking about products, they're about the benefit of selling direct to consumer. And so, you know, just to kind of break this down the world we live in right now. I mean, there are still platforms like Amazon, where it's really, it can be really lucrative to sell your product directly through another company. I mean, whether you're getting your your product on the shelves in Walmart, or Target or selling it online through Amazon. But of course, there's also the opportunity with the internet internet to build your own audience and then sell your products directly to consumers, either online or of course. And yeah, as always an in person, brick and mortar stores. So So what do you see is the benefit to selling direct to consumer is obviously there's more work and the sense that you do have to actually create your own connection to your audience, right? There's not an audience ready and waiting for you unless you've already built it. So what do you see is the benefits to direct to consumer? And how do you create experiences with that?
Joe Pine 12:30
Well, you can, when you go direct to consumer, you can actually control the experience, you can forestall the forces of commoditization, if you sell through Amazon, guess what they do, they do a search and you're one of 100 different vendors and get after those vendors are really Amazon themself. And you're competing with all these and what do people look for, they're looking for that price. In fact, Amazon will show you, here's, here's what we think is the best deal, right? And it may or may not be your product, when they search specifically for your product, you search for your product, and you get all these other vendors that pop up automatically. And and therefore, you know, it is a sure route to commoditization, unless you can create that differentiation. And the easiest way to do that, again, was was with experiences. So you go to rank, you control the experience both physical real world experience, if you have a store some sort or and the and the digital virtual experience that you create online. And that will enable you to you know, to again, differentiate yourself get out of that commoditization and shift up this progression of economic value. And once you know, individual customers, it gives you an opportunity to customize to them. And that's another key part part of the DNA of the experience Academy from my original work on mass customization, where I recognized that if you customize a good you're automatically in the service business, you can customize the service, if you design a service, it's appropriate for this particular person, exactly the service that they need at this moment in time, then you can help them make them go wow, and turn it into a memorable event, turn it into an experience. And that direct relationship makes it easier to customize your offerings, your goods, your services, and then even those experiences to them individually.
John Meese 14:12
Well, so let's unpack that a little bit. So I mean, I'm falling, you're totally tracking with you that the direct to consumer, I mean, basically, you made a strong case that Amazon is essentially the the the the most direct path to commoditization of your product of competing, you know, basically on price, you know, essentially with very little other options. I mean, you can control the thumbnail image. And that's, you know, the little description, but not very much else, you know, and there are times where that's strategic, you know, to get in front of an audience. But if you can get to building an audience directly with your consumer, then all of a sudden, it's a direct relationship. And so you can really separate your product or your service to really stand alone, not stand side by side, many other competing vendors. But then so I totally get that and I'm tracking with you. That's and I think that's really important to talk about, but I want you to unpack this idea of mass customization, a little bit Because it seems to me that every entrepreneur that I talk to or work with, is really excited about the idea of creating economies of scale by having a single product or service that systemize that you can basically, that you can repeatedly sell or deliver without any customization whatsoever. Because, hey, that's cheap. So but you're actually recommending mass customization, you know? And so can you unpack that a little bit? What I mean, what is that? And why should we do it? Why should go to the work?
Joe Pine 15:28
Well, because it's so much better. You know, mass customization is efficiently serving customers uniquely. In other words, you're giving them everybody exactly what they want at a price you're willing to pay. And increasingly, people don't want to put up with the standard off the rack on the shelf offering. They want things that are designed for them. I mean, there's, there's so many reasons for that. So the key though, is, is the mass part, right? For an entrepreneur, right? It's easy to craft customize, but it'll cost you a lot of money. That's why we generally when entrepreneurs start out, you want to be able to go from inventing a new, a new offering, whatever that might be to develop it to mass produce it. And that can be a good first step. But But even if you do that, first, you want to have in mind, the ability to eventually customize it. And, and what that means is very simple. You want to design it with modularity, you want to design it like it's it's Lego building bricks, where you can put together the Legos in different ways for different customers. And when you do that, you can have one efficient process that has an almost infinite number of possibilities coming out of it, because you pick different Lego bricks and put them together in different ways. And even if you can't, can't modularize the product, you can modularize the process by which you put this together. And the other key thing, particularly for many entrepreneurs today is understand digitization. Anything you can digitize, you can customize. And once it enters the realms of zeros and ones, you can instantaneously changes zero to one and vice versa. So if you digitize your product there's so many products are today, then you just instantaneously customize it, if you can't digitize the price, again, you can digitize the process, putting them together. And if you can't do that, you can digitize information about the product and the process to get add to that unique individual demand that's out there.
John Meese 17:22
So it sounds like you're really differentiating between kind of it sounds like I mean, really what small business owners, entrepreneurs, what we're all trying to avoid, you're characterizing as crafting or inventing that, you know, for each customer, which is where we're kind of creating something from scratch. That's where it becomes like, man, I don't want to do that I don't you know, I don't want 10,000 customers if I have to craft an individual, you know, completely different product for each customer. But what you're talking about is modularity. And I like the Lego brick analogy. Because in addition to theater, I myself, of course, dabbled in Legos like any, any good millennial, that's actually a great example. I mean, Lego is as a business has done this, right? I mean, they mass produce these plastic squares that all connect to each other. And of course, we're using that as a metaphor. But I think it's also good to point out that that is a business that has done this too, with huge success. So yeah, so mass customization with modularity. So could you give an example of that, because I think that's a really powerful concept of a business that's done that with their products, and especially because you're talking about digitization, if you have an example, in the digital world, that would be helpful.
Joe Pine 18:22
Well, I'll give you I'll give you an example. Although it's not an entrepreneur, but it's one that comes to mind that exemplifies you know, exactly what we talked about is thinking about Dominoes, and it's build your own pizza. I know now, you go into any pizza shop, and you can you know, they've got a menu, but they almost always will have this thing of build your own. Right now, with Domino's, you go online and build your own. They actually let you see what the pizza looks like, right? You pick which kind of crust that you want, and you boom, up pops a picture of this cust versus that cust versus another cust, then you you say, Okay, well, we have pepperoni on and boom pepperoni appears. Let me add sausage, you get all the sausage a period, olives whatever you want on it until you get to be exactly what you want visually seen and say, okay, that's what my pizza is going to look like. Then you press the button. And now what you get is a digital tracking mechanism. Where you can track your pizza, they, which you can do on online, you can do it on your phone, you can do it on your Apple Watch. And you can see okay, they made the pizza, they had the quality check, they put it in the oven, they checked it, it came out of the oven, it's now on a vehicle and boom, right before they're ringing the door, it goes red saying your pizzas delivered. And so it provides this wonderful experience of tracking tracking your pizza. So all of those elements and the key thing is to understand the principles by which any company whether it's big or whether it's small operates in terms of being able to extract out those principles and apply them to your business.
John Meese 19:52
Well, since I'm now salivating Let's stay on the pizza topic. So, cuz I think you also I mean, like I think that's a great example. Thank you for sharing that. And I think we can all think of versions of how we could play that out in our own business without creating a, you know, massively complex software website. And there's the basic ways we
Joe Pine 20:09
There are tons of tool makers out there, there are tools to be able to do this. So you could just grab and use.
John Meese 20:15
That's true. That's true. But I want to I want to kind of use that is a good jumping off point to talk a little bit about food. Since we're talking about pizza. You know, you mentioned and I thought this was really fascinating. You mentioned in your book that there's a problem with how restaurants typically charge for food, then most restaurants seem to be caught in this commoditization or product mindset. And that's, you know, you just you can see that on the menu. So could you guess expound upon that a little bit? Cuz I think that's, that really intrigued me that idea that the restaurants are doing it wrong.
Joe Pine 20:44
Yeah, it was a Yeah, there they are, well, one's a little bit strong of a term. Okay, what they're doing is that they're they're, they're keeping themselves into the service business, rather than expanding truly in the experience business. So what happens when you have what every time you have one of these big economic shifts this company always give away the next level of value in order to better sell what they have today? Right. So that's what restaurants are doing. They're giving away the experience. And but not charging for it. They're still they're still selling the the the goods and the services that they have inside the restaurant. And, you know, let me use let me use Starbucks as an example here. Because whenever an entrepreneur asked me, I asked me for a great new start up as as an experience, I always say, well, Starbucks, because Starbucks at one point was at a single location. And it was in fact, a manufacturer of coffee goods that bought coffee beans, right and turned them into goods. And then Howard Schultz went to Italy and got the brilliant idea to turn them into coffee drinking places. And that's how they went from one location selling goods to 20 over 20,000 locations that are now offering this coffee drinking experience, you know, where they take beans worth two or three cents per cup, it turned into goods, which are worth 5/10 cents per cup into services that are worth 50 cents dollar dollar and a half per cup to now this coffee drinking experience were three, four or $5. Now they're not charging it. They're also commoditizing themselves, because they they're not charging explicitly for the experience. They're commoditizing themselves by first having drive-thru in the same locations now having mobile pickup, right, where you're not getting any of that real experience, particularly in mobile, and see them making it you don't see all that's going on, there's no theater to it, what's whatsoever. So they are commoditizing themselves, I fully believe and But eventually, you have to align what you charge for with what your customers value. And that means charging for the time that they spend with you. And so there are now anti cafes around the world one I've been to in London is called Ziferblat cafe. Originally in Moscow Ziferblat is the Russian term for a walk clock, where you go in and you you basically you know, get a timecard and you clock in and then you're paying like eight pence per minute, which is like 12 cents per minute. For the experience, where you can spend in there, you can socialize, you can play games, you could do work, you can read, just visit with friends, or meet new friends, whatever it might be. And then the coffee is free. Now you're getting not getting one of these you know venti nonfat, you know, Frou Frou drinks that you're getting at Starbucks, but damn a coffee machine and the goods are subsumed within the price of the of the place, eventually, that's what Starbucks is going to have to do you have an interesting example of a way to do this is printed on j in the UK to sandwich place. And when you go in the things, you have actually two prices, there's a there's a takeaway price, and then there's a dine in price, right equivalent to mobile ordering on Starbucks and buying it and drinking it in in the place. And they're usually 50 pence to 75 pence apart. So it's a you know, it's a 75 cents to $1.25, somewhere in there. And so they're recognizing that, hey, there's value in dining in there's value in the experience that you have in this place. And if you're not going to take that value, then it's a cheaper price, right. And that's exactly what Starbucks should do. Mobile ordering drive-thru should be cheaper than going into the place as a recognition that that difference is in fact an admission fee. And now there are many restaurants that are charging admission when the most famous is Next in Chicago, where you actually have to make a reservation and often they're booked months in advance booked that reservation pay for that reservation print out your ticket and then bring it with you to the experience and then all the other than that takes care of your your dining experience with only liquor and tip extra. And of course what happens is people stop making a reservation and not showing up because they paid for it in advance. Or they actually call and cancel so they so they have higher capacity utilization because of that. And they gain more value. And what an admission fee does is it sends the signal that this is a place worth experiencing.
John Meese 25:08
Well, I love that because as you were unpacking both of those examples, I realized that I actually, so I own a co-working space business, okay, we're in the experience, because we charge admission, you got to be a member to use the space, but then everything's included after that, you know, full use of our kitchen, we've got, you know, we've got coffee, we've got a, you know, WiFi we've got an office space. I mean, so that's a, I think that's a really interesting, you know, just as you were explaining that I made that connection, that, you know, we need it to go back to my team and make sure we think about it that way. And we already do experience when we have like, little things like little micro details everywhere meant to Wow, people. But I don't think we've ever phrased it in that way that really what we're selling is the experience. So I love that.
Joe Pine 25:51
That's exactly right. And then charging a membership fee is just another way of charging for time in the book, we actually have six different ways that you can charge for time, but admission fee is the most generic, and but I And so yeah, so one of the things I always ask, you know, entrepreneurs in particular is what business are you really in? Right? Are you in the commodities business? Are you in the goods, business services business? Or are you in the experience business? And when you do that, they need to ask well, what would you do differently? If you charge admmission? Right, that will set you up? But But John, I'd also submitted that you're Yes, you're in the experience business and therefore you subsume in services you subsume in goods, and he made Namsom your coffee, commodities and tea and things like that a lot around, but I would like to give you one more option.
John Meese 26:35
Okay, so it's not totally toxic. Let's talk about that. Right. So
Joe Pine 26:37
There's one more economic offering this progression of economic value that we talked about in the preview, and then in chapters nine and 10 of the book. And that's, again, using this juristic where customization is the antidote to commoditization, you know, commoditization is like the law of gravity. If you do nothing, you'll be commoditized over time, customization lifts you up, right? It's anti-commoditization, because you can't help but be differentiated, if you work with each individual customer, on their on their individual needs. So what happens when you customize an experience, we design experience now that it's so appropriate for this particular person, exactly the experience that they need at this moment in time, then you can help turn into what we often call a life transforming experience. And information, right transformation is the fifth and final economic offering this progression of economic value we're using experiences is the raw material to guide people to change. In other words, to help them achieve their aspirations. Right. So So fitness centers are in the transformation business. I mean, why do people go to fitness centers and endure all that work, sweat and pain, because they think, again, will be worth it? They want to become more fit healthcare transformations, coaches of all stripes is about transformations, management consultants about transformations. And so I think if you as a co working place, thought about the fact that, you know, why do people come to our co working facility? Because they want to better business. They want to improve their business, maybe start up their business, they want to enhance their business, they want to improve their business in some way. And if you be anything, okay, what are the ways that I can help my individual customers? What are the experiences I can provide, that will actually help them become better businesses, because that's why they're really buying from you.
John Meese 28:16
Well, that is a phenomenal walkthrough of some of the insights within this book. And thank you for unpacking these with great examples. And, you know, I'm excited to go back and again, rethink, you know, I've used that word transformation, but not in the same way that you're using it, where you're kind of really treating it as like a fifth level after that, you know, you've
Joe Pine 28:32
An economis offering unto itself,
John Meese 28:34
right? So it's, you know, you've got commodities, you've got products, you've got services, you've got experiences, and then you've got life changing transformation as sort of the holy grail of what we're after. Is that fair to say?
Joe Pine 28:45
John Meese 28:47
Okay, that's great. Well, Joe, thank you so much for your time, this has been a joy, and I really appreciate it. So where can we go to get your book? And where can we go to learn more about you and what you do?
Joe Pine 28:56
Oh, well, guess what, Amazon's the best place to go get the book. Just Just search for Joseph Pine. Right, you'll find all my books there. Our website is strategichorizons.com strategic horizons with an 's' .com got a bio got the union click on the books, they're all our other offerings. We got a blog post we call thoughts that you can learn about our latest and greatest ideas. We also have their a certification offering, you know, you can become a certified expert in the experience economy, as well as get back to the theater point as well as an onstage offering we call it that's a frontline video training program that I think any entrepreneur would gain value from that as well taking it themselves. And then also any any workers particularly frontline facing that they have.
John Meese 29:44
Well, excellent. Well, Joe, thank you once again for your time. This has been immensely helpful. I appreciate everything you do and please keep up the good work.
Joe Pine 29:51
All right. Thanks, John. I appreciate it.
John Meese 29:52
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