Jennifer Katrulya, Partner at Citrin Cooperman, helps us dig deep into the world of finances on today's episode. She shares a wealth of tips for making sure you are monitoring your cashflow correctly, as well as tips on what financial reports are most important for new entrepreneurs. Jennifer also shares the best way to get started in hiring financial partners.
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John Meese 0:24
Jennifer, thank you so much for joining me. How are you doing today?
Jennifer Katrulya 0:27
I'm great. How are you today? Thanks for having me.
John Meese 0:29
I'm doing well. I mean, we were just, I made it I walked three quarters of a mile uphill in the ice to get to my office, because as we're recording this in the middle of an ice storm, so that was interesting, you know, not the typical start to a day, but I'm here. And I'm, you know, here we are.
Jennifer Katrulya 0:44
I'm in the northeast, and and it's one of the few times I can say, I think I'm in a warmer climate than many right now. So,
John Meese 0:50
yes, well, where you can have here winter weather back whenever you want. But regardless, I'm excited to have you, you know, join me today for this conversation. You know, I'm really excited to dive into talking about, you know, profit efficiency, you know, all the things that are key necessary ingredients to building a thriving business. But before we get into that, I would love if you could tell us a little bit about yourself, Jennifer. So I'd love to know, who are you and what gets you out of bed in the morning.
Jennifer Katrulya 1:15
Thank you well, so at Citrin Cooperman, I am a co leader of our outsourced accounting group. So we actually help replace or supplement accounting departments for small and mid sized companies. And I am part of our national development team as well. And really where that comes from is back in 2004, I had been in audit for a long time, and come from a family of entrepreneurs. And I would always see the audit work at year end or tax work at year end and say, Gosh, I wish I'd worked with these businesses year round, because I could probably help help do better than then the, you know, panic at year end. So I found it at that point and outsourced accounting company in the early stages of cloud technology, really in the small business space. And I'm just so what gets me out of bed in the morning is certainly family, but also living mobile, being able to be very flexible and work and just for everybody who's investing their life in their business, you know, any little bit I can do to make that path easier. I feel excited about that.
John Meese 1:28
Well, I'd love to talk more about that. So, you know, knowing that we're, you know, the people listening into this, right now, as we're talking are entrepreneurs, small business owners, and who are building a business and, you know, pouring as you said, their life into this and you know, making money but not always seeing that money. Still in the bank account at the end of the month, what would you advise is the best way to approach finding the profit and efficiency leaks in a company? You know, I that's no, that's a term you use before to talk about finding those leaks in the company? Where do you start?
Jennifer Katrulya 2:41
You know, I think first of all, it has to start with the discipline of deciding there's always that push and pull between, I need to grow the business and I need to be willing to invest in myself and take risks, etc. At the end of the day, especially starting out though, there is a security line where I think you have to be very careful about this is what I need in case of emergencies and survival and things like that. And, and, and from those earliest stages, still make sure that you're setting that piece aside. And within the remaining amount. The key is driving growth through careful investment, unfortunately, now versus you know, 20 years ago, with social media, and a number of other things, building your own brand and investing yourself your time versus necessarily so much money is an important way to get out of the gate and building contacts and relationships at the early stage.
John Meese 3:30
Okay, great. So let's just kind of break that down a little bit. So you're talking about how, you know, you need to have baseline something to fall back on, as you know, as a business owner, no matter what stage you're at, so is that kind of like a like a either a reserve or a working capital fund? Is that kind of what you're thinking?
Jennifer Katrulya 3:45
Yes, I just I often hear companies and individuals, so of all sizes, say I know I need to grow. So I'm going to invest in, in marketing, I'm going to invest in advertising online, or I'm gonna bet in networking groups, I am very much an advocate for two things again, saying of my money each month or my cash coming in, I'm going to take 10% of that and set it aside, or I know that a month of rent is you know, X amount. And so at least over the next three months, I'm going to make sure I have that aside. And everything else then has to fall within the rest of that bucket. So that you decide your networking groups your participation in events, you're in a really some of this is not COVID necessarily but but online too. And And so within the rest of that growth, I think driving profitability is focusing in and being narrow. I know that for several years, as you're starting a new business, everybody's kind of scrambling and you cast a wide net to get really comfortable with your market. But that can also really exhaust resources and you really can't get depth and invest the time to make the most of those things either. So I think as quickly as you can decide what a right fit is for you and where your time can be invested that allows you to be really efficient and get the most out of the money you are spending
John Meese 5:00
Okay, that's great. So you mentioned a couple, there's so there's two ways that you recommend kind of thinking about that reserve one is really building that up is like taking, say, 10% of each month's profit or revenue, what kind of way to get one or the other?
Jennifer Katrulya 5:13
I look at it as revenue, because if you wait for profit, you're kind of hoping at the end, right?
John Meese 5:18
Exactly, yeah. Okay. And then the other way is to or which, which, you know, is to set aside and kind of set a goal based on key bills in your business, like rent or other, you know, payroll, perhaps, or things like that. And I can see that being a hybrid, right? Like, where you're saving 10% of your revenue until you get to that dollar threshold. So yeah, so once you've done that, once you build that reserve, and you're looking at the money going in and out of your business, what kind of financial tools are most important to learn for a new entrepreneur? So I know that I mean, you mentioned this already, right? Where you're with, you're passionate about helping entrepreneurs who, more than just once a year at tax time, you know, want to, you know, really need to look at financial reports. Well, what does that look like? Like, let's just say like, if I'm a new brand new entrepreneur and building a business, and I'm just like, Look, I just sell my thing. And then I, you know, it, that's really my thing is I sell my thing, and we I pay the bills, what kind of financial reports should I be looking at? What kind of financial tools should I learn? Should I really invest in learn long term to really understand my own business?
Jennifer Katrulya 6:13
You know, I'm a big advocate for having basic technology help, because so many of the solutions now offer a combination of doing your current bookkeeping and keeping you on track today, but also helping you based on your spending, build a budget, even if you haven't done that formally, look at what your available spend is going to be for future months, you know, whether it's brand specific, but you know, there are apps like mint or their, you know, QuickBooks self employed, or there's zero, there's, there's so big agnostic, if you do a search, there's you know, 10 or 15, out of the pocket apps, whatever you choose, there's the opportunity to download your information, you connect your bank accounts, everything else, make it as turnkey as possible, you say whether it's business or personal, because I know, especially as you're starting out a lot of times that gets commingled, but it then will ask you if this is a you know, monthly recurring expense, or is this a one time thing, and you can start to project out for future as well. And usually, it'll get into your tax software also. So, you know, automation, like that just gives you a sense of where you stand every month, because things get busy, and it can be hard to keep up. And then that, you know, going back to the topic we were just on is it allows you to start to figure out ways to differentiate yourself, and put your spend toward things that are going to separate you out and hopefully not cost a great deal of money to do.
John Meese 7:27
Yeah, okay. So really, we're talking about having a budget, I mean, just like you would have a personal budget, you know, even maybe you some of the same software, like you mentioned mint and others, you know, that are really meant for personal budgeting. But you know, you're saying set that up, automate it, you know, you can, that's the first step is just to get an idea of where the money's going.
Jennifer Katrulya 7:43
Keep it simple
John Meese 7:44
What are you thinking? Yeah, I'm sorry.
Jennifer Katrulya 7:46
But keep it simple. Because easy, don't overcomplicate it, and then you don't use it.
John Meese 7:51
Right? Yes. So, you know, when you talk about like profit leaks in the in the company, you know, when it comes to financial stuff, what do you see is kind of like the most common offenders on that, you know, is it like you mentioned growth, being, you know, somewhere where someone's investing every penny of profit, you know, into the next new marketing gimmick that's going to grow the business? What are other common sources of, you know, financial leaks that you see, and companies, when you look at the, we look at the budget, or you look at the profit loss statement, or whatever that may be?
Jennifer Katrulya 8:18
Yes. So there are some big offenders, which are people signing up for recurring technology subscriptions that you never use, but you forget to shut off overpaying on on a cell phone plan and data plans that you may not need rent at this point where there might be a collaborative working space or other flexible options. And again, some of this outside of COVID time but but certainly look for what fixed expenses you need labor do you need? If you're starting to hire employees? Do you actually need full time employees in every position? Or are there a couple of key positions you need to fill and you could outsource or use fractional, you know, labor in some other areas. I think just being sure to look at every single fixed expense that you're committing to whether it's committed or actually again, registrations and for things that you just set it and then you forget about them. Okay,
John Meese 9:09
So let's talk about that with fixed expense. I know people throw around terms like overhead and fixed expenses that comes up, but can you just break it down for us? I mean, what exactly do you mean here?
Jennifer Katrulya 9:18
I mean, primarily, you're going to be talking about things like rent utilities, I'm going to throw phone and internet and things like in their power, then I'll really start to look at other commitments we may make if you're leasing equipment or if you're leasing you know, things like your your vehicles and stuff, like anything that's going to have a monthly payment that you are bound for an extended period of time, and that you know, is going to be usually consistent in amount but if you needed to change the business tomorrow, you wouldn't have the flexibility to remove those expenses.
John Meese 9:49
Right, Got it. Got it. Okay, so the fixed expenses being really the ones who are contractually bound to versus what's what will be the alternative what you know, what would you call a non fixed expense, which is called a non fixed expense,
Jennifer Katrulya 9:59
really, I We just call this your other general operating expenses, your variable expenses is horrible thing for if they're not fixed. But I look at those as wanting to shift the business as much to variable as possible, because then you can narrow down still to variable costs that are important to have for the business. And that's going to be things like how much you may travel, that's going to be different flexible types of employment. But if the business makes a sudden shift in a given direction, that's what's going to keep you agile, you're going to be able to change that up as you need it to fit your current business need, you're going to be able to, I'm going to say cut things out. But even at a difficult time, like the last year cutting things may not be the the answer. It may not be the amount of spend, it may just be that it's not the right mix anymore. And so I would say that it's those things that allow you to be flexible and adapt quickly.
John Meese 10:48
Hmm, that's great. Well, and I know that, you know, we talked about with financial tools, you know, budget is a good first step. And I know you said don't overcomplicate it, but I use QuickBooks Online. And I know that if I look under that Reports tab in QuickBooks Online, there's like, I haven't counted them. But there are a lot of reports in there, you know, and I've got my favorites. I've got the, you know, the the few that I go check out, I pretty much ignore all the rest. But could you walk us through like, as you're maturing as an entrepreneur and really growing your business and scaling your business? What are the important reports to begin to understand and to monitor on a regular basis in your business to get an accurate picture of what's going on, without having to become a bookkeeper or an accountant? But really just understanding what's going on in your business?
Jennifer Katrulya 11:25
Fair. Sure. So I would say, when I'm working with a client, even as a startup or small business, you know, your balance sheet that gives you a solid sense of where the business actually is today, your cash, your receivables, your payables. And that's a really important one, because it's actually only as good as getting the data in there. So if you're only posting your bank activity, that's really not giving you a sense of how much do I actually owe people? How much am I actually owed? And how quickly Am I getting it. And that leads to the second one being will say a profit and loss a bigger income statement and your your bottom line? Are you actually profitable. And if depending on where you stand is it a matter of you have too much overhead or your cost of doing business are too high. So your income statement over time is obviously going to give you that picture of how things are going within the year. Cash Flow is typically overlooked, but cash is king without cash, you're not in business. So while respectfully the Intuit reports need some manipulation a little bit to be helpful. Learning how to use them, is really important because again, knowing that even if you have a big invoices due in 90 days, that you're going to have enough cash to make it until then is critically important, or they have some way to cover it. The other ones that I think are very important are accounts receivable, accounts payable, we can be moving so quickly, that it can be easy to have receivables that just age. And we're not buy that. So if I have customers that I'm billing today, and then I'm on to the next work, or I'm excited about the next gig, I may not realize that, hey, it's been 60 days or 90 days, and maybe I'm even still doing work for that same client or customer, and they still owe me.
John Meese 13:01
They haven't paid the invoice, right?
Jennifer Katrulya 13:02
Right. And so, you know, that actually got me a number of years ago into being paid by retainer or prepaid, so that I didn't have that issue. But you have to get to that point by realizing Hey, it's uncomfortable to be working with somebody while they still owe me for three months ago. So looking at just those balances and having a system in place to follow up and make sure cash is coming in quickly. Because otherwise, you're paying on that by actually giving out your money to your your expenses and to the bills you owe. Somehow you are financing that whether it's again, just through the lack of cash that you could be using for other things one way or the other, there's a cost for that. So definitely, again, balance sheet income statement, cash flow, and then accounts receivable and payable. At a minimum, those are the reports I would be looking at a lot of companies then don't stop to look at the one more would be the general ledger or the transaction list. Okay, just make sure that everything is coded in the right place. Ah, gotcha. So, that's the one accounting report, I might pull. But it really just is your transaction list.
John Meese 14:03
Okay, okay, so great. So we start with making sure we understand the balance of yours. And that's the most important if you're getting accurate information there would you know, just get a pulse on kind of where's the money that you have, you know, what things you what assets you have, whether that's a banking account, or some kind of equipment or that kind of thing. And then the income statement, which is, you know, the profit and loss, you know, inevitably, you know, I know a lot of entrepreneurs, that's the first thing we learn how to read is the P&L, you know, because we just want to see that that's really what we just want to do one number at the bottom and then keep moving. You know, just see how much profit we generated or lack thereof. And then you're saying number three cash flow. Now, can you talk a little bit more about that? Because I think you're right, that is something that I think a lot of entrepreneurs really overlook. And so how do you recommend someone you know, look at that, like, let's just say we're talking about– Well, I mean, like you mentioned, like invoicing clients and that kind of stuff, you've got you've got, you know, maybe your own just maybe it's just your own overhead and your business you're on fixed expenses, but you've also got, you know, your maybe you have subcontractors you're working with or employees, you know, all those things are cost to the business. They show up in the profit loss statement. So could you help us just clarify a little bit that what you see is the biggest value in a cash flow forecast, or cash flow plan or whatever tool separate from the p&l?
Jennifer Katrulya 15:12
Sure. So I think you know, the p&l is really good about giving you that it's reactive, that sense of what has happened in the business and how the business is doing. But if it's cash basis, it's only as good as what you actually paid that month, and what you actually received so that the timing differences there can throw things off. And if you are actually looking at financial statements where our that our accrual basis, and you're looking at receivables and payables as well, still, because we may have customers who pay us 45/60/90 days out, your cash flow is going to actually show your best guess that when that money is actually going to come in, and when you're actually going to owe money out. And again, the small business level, you're looking to make sure that you have positive cash. And every time you're gonna have obligations that need to be met. And some things that quickly can throw things off are the credit card bill that you don't think about. So month end, and suddenly you have to cover if you've been using that heavily, you may be thinking that you're going to make it just in time for payroll. But if you don't, and if that one payment you're you're waiting for hasn't come in either to pay employees or to pay yourself for your mortgage and your own personal expenses. The cash flow is going to challenge you each month, week, etc. However, often you're focused on it, I recommend a 13 week, look out usually for people start to get better at really knowing when that money is going to come in when the obligations are doing if you see periods of time where you're not clear, you're not clearing those expenses to start to think ahead about what your plan will be.
John Meese 16:39
So you mentioned a term there, which I'm familiar with, I know that it's one of those things that I kind of stumbled on as an entrepreneur like no, I didn't have a degree in economics, but I did go to business school. So I don't know that I think that's true for a lot of entrepreneurs. And so you mentioned the term cash and accrual now know what cash is right? It's money, you know, so why don't we talk about that for a second, could you explain the difference between cash and accrual accounting? Because I know that's a big difference when you talk about these financial reports in terms of what they actually mean. And a lot of entrepreneurs may not even know consciously whether or not they're operating their business on a cash or accrual basis.
Jennifer Katrulya 17:56
Absolutely. And recently, I've spent a lot of time on this, I'm going to throw a modified cash in there too, because that's where most of us will land. So cash basis really, to be, here's money that I took in, here are expenses that I've paid out, you could download your bank statement essentially. And that is closest thing I can easily describe to cash basis. Accrual is where you're actually at month end, going to count, make sure you've accounted for all money you've earned but haven't received yet. All obligations that are due even if you haven't paid them yet. And then depreciation entries amortization, depending on what you have for prepaids and deferrals. And so the starts to get more anything the business has incurred or is due, even if it is non cash, it is going to get booked in an accrual based statement. The middle ground there is that and this is most common is where companies may look at mostly cash in and out, but still book their receivables that they are owed their payables that are due and probably depreciation and some things like that. So it's probably closest to what's ending up on your tax return, frankly.
John Meese 19:02
Okay, interesting. So let's talk about let's just give a practical example of that. So with cash, you're saying, like, you know, I sent an invoice to a client, you know, they owe me $5,000. And they haven't paid it by the end of the month. And it's let's just say it's March, you know, at the end of the month, when I go back and look at my profit loss statement, that invoice isn't going to show up on my profit loss statement, if I'm on a cash basis, because I didn't get paid, right?
Jennifer Katrulya 19:24
So if you received $5,000, this month, that could be cash that you actually received from work you did this month, or the extra 1000 that somebody still owed you from the month before. That didn't happen to come in this month. But if someone hasn't paid you, you won't see it.
John Meese 19:39
So for like an accrual basis, just use an example. Let's just say I have a client I work with him for three months in a row and each month I send them an invoice for $5,000 but they don't pay them until in April they pay all three all at once well in a cash basis. So counting that in April's profit loss statement or income statement then that would appear as $15,000 all at once, but an accrual basis that would be that would still appear Is $5,000 in each month's income statement, even though I didn't get paid until they were all paid at the same time? Is that fair to say? Is that correct? Yeah,
Jennifer Katrulya 20:09
yeah. That's perfect. And that's absolutely right. And that's where that cash flow becomes so important, because you'd want to plan for the fact that that 15,000 might not come in for three months, but you're still gonna have some fixed expenes that you have to cover every month until then.
John Meese 20:24
Okay, so that's one reason why the cash flow forecast is especially important. If you're on an accrual basis, then very, because your income statement doesn't actually match your what's in the bank. Is that fair to say?
Jennifer Katrulya 20:33
Right, it's gonna look rosy, you're gonna have the money to cover those expenses, when in fact, you may not absolutly
John Meese 20:39
So tell me more of this modified cash? Because that's new to me. I'm familiar with cash accrual, but like modified cash versus accrual? Can you walk us through an example of what the difference would be there? And what the benefit is using modified cash?
Jennifer Katrulya 20:49
Yes. So when you hear about, you know, gap accounting or formal accounting for audit and presentation purposes, modified cash doesn't count. Right? It is the most realistic? Absolutely, yes, it is the reality of how for small business reporting, it's it usually happens it again is taking into account the receivables you have, it's the payables that your your business owes. Part of the reason this is most common is if you're entering those, let's say in your your QuickBooks file or something they spit out with your report, your accountant, put them, put them on your tax return, and you're, you're done. So but it's not it is also useful as a business management tool. Because the other entries certainly are important. When we're full accrual basis, things like your deferred, aren't as relevant to your day to day operations need to be added potentially for formal accounting to be correct. But day to day to run your business, at least you are not being kind of fooled by that, Hey, I got a ton of cash in this month. And I show very little expenses. Well, that could be because you have a pile of expenses and sitting next to your computer. It is at least giving you a fairly accurate picture of where the business stands and recording things like depreciation, and amortization, and allowing you to do really planning for the business for several weeks out an eating and that cash flow preparation. And it's most likely again, the mix that's being reported on your tax return. But when you're not showing things like what payroll actually cost you for the month, and what other items should have been in a given period where this starts to really become a problem is when you're trying to do budgeting, or trying to compare your business this year to last year. If you're purely cash basis, you're not getting apples to apples from one period to the next or year over year.
John Meese 22:35
Right. Right, because you're just looking at when the money just happened to arrive in the bank account versus when you did the thing that made the money. So well, that's helpful, you know, I think so modified cash is being you know, potentially a middle path. That's, that's a helpful tool. So let's shift gears for a minute and talk about the fact that you've been a bit of a pioneer in this idea of a fractional Chief Financial Officer or fractional CFO. And so I'd love for you to talk a little about, you know, what does that mean? a fractional CFO, what is that? And why would a business want that or need that?
Jennifer Katrulya 23:08
Sure. So really, the fractional CFO services is where you can bring somebody in to work with a company, whether it's a few hours, or it could be full time for a period of time, but it's back to kind of that variable expenses. And as you need it and flexible arrangement, where you are able to add CFO level services to your company and to your really have an ally, that that is sourced as needed.
John Meese 23:30
Okay, so that's something that you've both done yourself, and then you have other people you work with to do that. Is that right?
Jennifer Katrulya 23:35
Yes. So initially, when I had an accounting, a CPA firm that I owned for a number of years, I was in that capacity with a number of clients. I also work with hundreds of them collaboratively across the country, because we all sort of know each other– I shouldn't say all but as you get to know one another, it becomes a really positive referral to be able to drop that into a business who needs it, because what it helps solve for is a company who is either hiring someone full time, because they feel like they need that expertise, and that the only way to get it is to incur you know, someone full time all year. And that is an expense that can be very burdensome for a company. And also that person may not have the expertise needed as the company evolves. So this offers some flexibility. And the second thing is that more often, in fact, a company will not get that expertise that they need, and they'll be understaffed and rely on on a support from people who can't give them the information they need to make business decisions, can't be a team member or a colleague that is able to actually work at the same level and take weight off of the owners plate. So that supplemental service can really make a dramatic difference for the company.
John Meese 24:43
That's great. Well, so when do you think that a business or an entrepreneur is ready to consider a fractional CFO? I mean, is there like a kind of revenue range or kind of like or industry specific thing, you know, markers to know when you're ready for that or it's something you should consider?
Jennifer Katrulya 24:58
I'm a big advocate for that. As soon as possible in the business, being able to delegate, anything you as the business owner don't have to do or don't have the skill set to do. And really, the first is don't have to do because you went into business with an idea that, again, assuming it's a positive and viable idea and is going to grow in the market, you want to be able to focus your energies on the growth of that idea and as fast to market as possible and and on the development. And so that person in the CFO capacity is first going to be a really valuable advisor for you, because all of the things that you probably didn't go into business to do the financial management, the accounting, a lot of things we've been talking about, that's what they do. So a, they're gonna be able to save you time, which is incredibly valuable in the early stages, they probably also have worked with other businesses like yours. So they may be able to save you from some of the mistakes and traps that others have have dealt with, right. So even if it's an hour or two hours or something per week, I'm a big advocate for getting that support as early on as possible. Because then they can also assist with other roles and functions within the company, as you again are on the frontlines helping to grow. And then as the business continues to grow, that can expand from being, you know, really advisory to more rolling up their sleeves and helping you get things done. And so there's a at different times and stages of the business, there will be a different use for that skill set.
John Meese 26:22
Okay, and how does that relate to the need for a bookkeeper or a bookkeeping agency? Is that something that you you do pursue the bookkeeper first? Or is it kind of a package deal? What do you recommend?
Jennifer Katrulya 26:32
I recommend out of that, now, certainly resources are a part of the decision. But I would say that, getting that CFO again, even for a short period of time, an hour or two a week, at the same time that you're getting that that bookkeeper or shortly thereafter is incredibly helpful, because again, it allows unless you are in the business of setting up systems for your bookkeeper oversight, internal controls, technology, you will spin your wheels, so for so many hours, implementing something that may not be ideal for you and may not be efficient or cost effective, right. Whereas you could get the amount of help me to get that in place, move your company forward, and generally will pay for itself many times over.
John Meese 27:13
Great. Well, that's very helpful. Well, this has been immensely helpful, Jennifer, and I appreciate all your time today. Is there any kind of you know, just knowing that we're right now you have to have the attention of you know, early stage entrepreneurs, building businesses from scratch, you know, really to focus on building a business that fuels their life, rather than the other way around? Is there any other advice you would like to give before we wrap up today's interview on just kind of how to build a profitable business that really can thrive in any economy, I mean, even including this one,
Jennifer Katrulya 27:41
You know, it goes back to really a number of the things we've talked about making sure that you keep things as variable as possible, so that you're as agile as possible. Secondly, if you didn't go into business to do accounting, or HR or back office, anything, really, really consider the possibility of of outsourcing it versus trying to do it yourself, because there's only so many hours in the day. And the second, the last thing would be, if you've gone into the business of providing outsourced services, which is something we didn't really go into standardized as much as possible. This is going to be true across business standardization, is the key to scaling whatever business you are in. So the more you can focus in and button that up the faster you'll be successful.
John Meese 28:21
That's great. Once again, thank you, Jennifer for your time. And I'd love to know where can we find you and learn more about you online?
Jennifer Katrulya 28:26
Sure. So LinkedIn under Jen Kat J-E-N K_A-T, is the easiest way to connect with me and would be excited to answer questions. And again, really appreciate being a guest today. Thank you.
John Meese 28:36
Okay, wonderful. Thank you. All right, keep up the good work.
Jennifer Katrulya 28:40
Thank you so much.
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